how do I handle this betreibungsamt

Finance, Taxes, Banking, Insurance and Retirement
1
I had a personal contract with orange that I stopped using and phone was off in drawer.

I kept up my monthly payments for most part but then missed a couple whilst I had a dispute with the services incurred whilst off.

Months went by and I forgot about it. Then I needed to contact orange and wanted to find out why I was not getting any invoices from them.

They informed me that they cancelled my contract and I had a large balance due. I knew nothing of this, no letter no phone call nothing. They said I had until mid November to pay before went to Inkasso. It was now mid October so I said can I see invoices for what I am having to pay and my cancellation letter. Twice they send me the wrong thing, taking two weeks to get to me, which was merely a summary of invoices far exceeding the monthly subscription, which was odd for a phone that was off.

On the third attempt of obtaining full invoice detail I was refused. My debt was now with Intrum. So I phone these up when details received mid November and ask for invoices and assured account on hold whilst I wait for them.

A few days after my call with Intrum I get letter from them thanking for a payment I never made. So I call them and they say it's automated from my contact. O...k.... and invoices?? They're on the way, ok.

Then I get a letter to go to gemeinde and pick up betreibungsamt last week. I suspect it's related to intrum. I send intrum scathing email and receive invoices via email within hours. Coincidentally they arrive in post that day too. This was last Friday.

Today I pick up betreibungsamt and as assumed its from intrum.

The helpful lady at gemeinde said to call them to remove which I will do. I am just confused, as was she, as to why they file this when we're in ongoing discussion to resolve and that I received the betreibungsamt before I receive the invoices?

How best should I handle this?

2
Bear this in mind...

The strength of a bureaucracy is measured by it's inability to deal with individuals. If you have two or more bureaucracies then...be patient and try to know exactly what you should be doing. OMG !

Forgetting about the bills could have cost you heaps.

Good luck.

3
Thanks, I think......

The amount due is the amount due, I am not too worried about that, even though there is a fundamental break down in customer service and transparency. I will try and remove some of the additional fees.

I am used to this totally woeful communication issue in this country so I am not beat up about that either.

I just want to understand how one can file a betreibungsamt before the individual concerned has received the invoices to which it relates? For all the crazy ineptness, this one is just beyond belief. Unless I am not getting something?

Alas, I want to know if any others have had to deal with such an issue.

Simply put, I want them to remove the black mark that could in turn cause me issues down the road, simply as I have been trying months to obtain the info for me to understand the total amount due, and have had to just keep banging my head against the wall until receiving in two forms, via email and post, on the same day last Friday........several days after letter to go to Gemeinde to pick up betreibungsamt

4
You MUST take the Betreibung seriously! Go to the Betreibungsamt or send a registered letter within 5 days , and tell them you object, you need to write a magic word, I think it is "Rechtsvorschlag" which stops the Betreibung and declares that you object.

fighting an abusive unfair betreibung

The complete guide to bills and what happens if you don't pay them.

Urgent! help needed. I got a poursuite ( DE: Betreibung ) that I have no clue about!

http://www.schuldeninfo.ch/tl_files/...gsregister.pdf

5
Yes, very serious indeed!

Regarding the Rechtsvorschlag, you can write this on the envelope the Betreibung is sent in - At the Post window. The letter will be returned to the Betreibungsamt.

However, do this ONLY if your ducks are in order. If you do not have everything documented, then consider the consequences. Because, if the person or business that initiated this Betreibung DOES have their documents in order... you will lose in court.... because that is the next step.

Side note: Most Betreibungs can be settled before it goes to court. If one side or the other gives in.

BTW: Why all the posts and threads started about Betreibung lately? Is there a new trend that I am not aware of? One of my clients failed to pay their bills despite several warnings. So I started the Betreibung last week, waiting on the reply from the Amt any day now.

JC

6
So they have advised me, after speaking to their legal department, that the betreibungsamt will be withdrawn after settlement of payment.

Is that normal process? Or should I request it be withdrawn immediately at commencement of first installment?

I guess it may not matter, i.e. I dont foresee moving home, buying a home, or needing to obtain any credit which could be impacted by this in near future. But, it just means it would linger there for a few months until settled in full.

Not sure if once its removed its removed and whether present for a week or several months it doesnt matter once its gone?

7
First: The thing you got was a Betreibung (debt pursuit) issued by the Betreibungsamt (Office of debt pursuit). Additionally, there is the Betreibungsregister (Registry of debt pursuits) and the Betreibungsregisterauszug (Personal record from the registry of debt pursuit).

What you do not want is that your current Betreibung shows up in a future Betreibungsregisterauszug (The thing you may have to give a potential future landlord).

The Btreibungsregister shows all:

- Ongoing Betreibungen

- Successful Betreibungen

- Stopped Betreibungen

What does not show up (it is still in the Registry but marked as 'not visible'):

- Everything older than 5 years.

- Where you have won in a court.

- And were the Betreibunge was retreaded.

Make clear that the company really retreats the Betreibung and the all marks in the registry get cleared (Löschung des Eintrags im Betribungsregister) because it is also possible to stop the Betreibung, but still showing up in the record.

8
I've nothing much to offer apart from some sympathy. I don't care if it was your fault or their fault, but I do know from experience elsewhere that these battles with bureaucracy can be extremely stressful and depressing.

For what it's worth, my own attitude now tends to be to pay up and shut up -- and I know that you're not saying otherwise here. Sounds like you have every intention of paying but are just exasperated by the bureaucracy.

My personal attitude is to try to keep these things in perspective. Like many people I imagine, I tend to get wound up by small things while ignoring bigger stuff. I was in a bar a few weeks ago and got talking to a stranger for about 10 minutes while waiting for a few friends to turn up. Later on, the waitress told me he hadn't paid for his beer, and I had to settle the bill. I had a ridiculous argument over this 4 CHFs that I later realised was really no big deal. The irony is that I felt so bad about giving her a hard time that I added another few CHFs to the tip -- so I ended up still paying the same amount. It can be the principle that winds us up, and not the actual money value.

The other thing I remind myself of is that these threatening letters we get are nearly all churned out by computer. A database somewhere creates an automated daily report that populates a template letter with your details, prints it and dispatches it -- without any human being intervening in the process at any point. Yet when we receive it, we take it very personally. And even when we call to query it, we are just a record in a database and a line on the screen of a bored call centre worker. It's dehumanising and degrading, but this way of working is cheap, and it's partly the low costs that attract us in the first place.

Good luck.

9
Thanks, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I have no issue with paying what I genuinely owe, my issue was never being in receipt of the invoices and then being charge additional on top for this break down in communication, and of course the receipt of betreibung when I am actively trying to obtain the information required to satisfy the charges levied.

After finally receiving all detail only on Friday last week, I asked the company where the additional 500 chf of charges come from, they said this:

" The invoices concerning the above-mentioned claim was not paid within the payment deadline. 4 months after the billing date and without any payment it is considered as a too long delay and fees can be charged. Our customer and our company have had a lot of spending because of the delay in payment. Therefore you are forced to pay all costs incurred."

I wait for a reply to my points to them below:

I have a problem with the charges:

· I have to receive invoices to pay them. If I don’t receive them I can’t pay them. I received them from you, on Friday 14 December. Orange had not sent me any invoices since April 2012.

· Remember, Orange never told me they cancelled my contract, until I called them to find out where invoices were in October. I never called them before because I was not using the phone and therefore did not need it / notice it was no longer in service.

· It took me two months to get the invoices from Orange and then you. Orange sent the wrong thing twice after I called them twice in October. Then on the third time they would not send them to me. Then I called you and you took around 3 weeks to send them to me. Only when I complained after receiving betreibung did I receive them from you last Friday 14 December.

· I too have had a lot of spending having to keep calling Orange and you also. This is also a lot of time.

10
You are not alone . There is an example letter maybe you can use some of its wording.

11
Just got a reply:

" Our client will not renounce the claim and we can't not cancel our fees, but to solve this issue amicable we give you a deduction of 50% which concern our fees. Let us know asap if you agree. "

I have also asked them confirm what they mean by "the execution will be withdrawn once payment is settled". I want to be clear whether that means it will remain on my file as a debt that was paid or whether they will remove it as if it never existed. Of course I would prefer and think it is only correct that it is the latter.

12
Is that satisfactory to you?

I don't understand the whole system, either. This past January, as we were packing the car to go on our yearly ski holiday, we got a letter from the courts that we were being sued for non-payment of our heating system. We just purchased a house in November of 2011 and never received any invoices, either. I assume our builder for whatever reason hadn't paid the bill (in the end I think they overlooked something) but it really stressed us out on vacation and I thought it weird that we were never contacted by the company before this, just taken straight to court. In the end the builder paid (I assume) and the suit was thrown out, but it was frightening, a bit, to say the least!

13
It's not really, but as mentioned above by a poster, and I as mentioned to the lady at the Gemeinde, these things are worth fighting to a degree, if only for the principle of the matter, but the headache and circles you keep going in make it easier to just pay up. As much as I hate that, you end up losing the energy for the fight. I had all this with cablecom, but did eventually win and get a huge credit on my account for my troubles.

I guess any reduction, if only 50% is a minor victory, and softens the blow a little then the full amount.

14
If this 50% is only over the debt collector fees than it is not a minor victory, but a major loss. If it includes fees charged by Orange (fees you may own them because of the general T&C) it can be a small victory.

First, ask them if they remove the entry once all money, interest and fees which are legally owned have been paid.

Then you may write them:

I transfered the amount of CHF XYZ plus CHF UVW interest into your bank account. Any additional costs claimed by your company incurred solely because your client and your company failed do provided a full, detailed, and correct invoice regarding the claim in a timely manner. I repeatedly requested a correct and complete invoice stating all services used and the total amount due Art. 26 MWSTG. I only received this invoice xy. Month Year. I cannot be held responsible for any fee or cost incurred that lay behind my scope Art. 106 OR. Additionally, Art. 27 Abs. 3 SchKG clearly forbids the transfer of ANY additional fees for using a commercial debt collector.

15
I am trying to ascertain their intentions with the betreibung once it is paid and they are not filling me with confidence. It is not clear to me, no matter how simply I put it, that the betreibung will be removed in its entirety, i.e. it will never be seen, or, whether they intend to indicate it as a settled debt, i.e. not a good situation.

I said this:

To be clear regarding the betreibung, you mentioned the execution will be withdrawn once settled. Does this mean I will have a betreibung on my record, and it will indicate that it has been paid when it is fully settled? This is not satisfactory. I do not want any record of the betreibung on my file. As even a betreibung, once paid, will be seen on my personal credit file. This will cause big problems in the future, and on the basis I have complied with every request and had to wait for the information to be received before I can make a payment, feel it is only fair the betreibung is fully removed without any record.

Please confirm whether the betreibung will be removed as if it never existed? or whether your intentions are to keep the betreibung on file, and only record the debt as paid once settled?

They said this:

We made the deduction of 50% of our costs. Yes as long the above mentioned claim is not fully settled, we aren' able to withdrawn the execution, because we have no security if you pay the monthly instalment regularly and on time

So, it sounds kind of like they intend to remove it properly, but, I guess as I have been told so many lies by companies here not doing what they say or what I understand from what they say, I am just concerned that 2 years down the line when I apply for credit perhaps, this pops up and its too late to do anything about it.

Thoughts?

16
There are quite a few threads on this - in short: you're screwed. Do a quick search and you'll see what you need to do now. And also what it means to have an entry in the summons registry that you're very unlikely go get rid off again, even if you pay Orange whatever they want.

very few companies have the entries removed again. SBB do, for example, but what I heard from Sunrise and Orange, they never do that, even if you offer to pay them to do so.

17
Just pay Orange the sum they demand as soon as possible. When you finally get an invoice it will show a credit. They aren't thieves, but it looks as though they have messed you up badly.

18
It wasn't only Orange who messed up:

Sorry, I just don't get the concept where switching off a phone and shoving it a drawer ends a contract.

It would appear to me that this contact is still running has not been cancelled from the info supplied here. Wouldn't cancelling be a idea??

19
No Orange are not involved anymore. They have passed the debt on, to Intrum Justitia, who I am dealing with now.

As above, its not Orange anymore, it is with the other company now. Orange are not involved at all. when I phoned them in October to find out where my invoices were, they told me they had cancelled the contract because invoices werent paid. To which I said I hadnt received them, and they said we will send them, but twice they sent just a summary, not proper full invoices, and on third attempt, they said they had passed the debt on and wont send me anything now, despite me trying to prevent that by explaining I had never been told any of this.

I am well aware that switching off and putting in a drawer does not end a contract. As above, Orange ended the contract when the invoices I didnt receive were never paid. I had kept up payments for the most part for invoices i received. I stopped using the phone in Jan 2012. I paid all invoices received up to March 2012. I disputed March 2012 as it was 500chf when it was off. Made no sense. Didnt get a reply. Not sure whether 500chf ever was paid in the end. Never received anything else. Completely forgot about it. Remember again around September that I had nothing from Orange for a while. I rung them up to find out about the invoices after some months of receiving nothing, and initially not thinking about it because it wasnt my primary phone anymore, that is when I found out they had cancelled the contract in June 2012 and I had one month to pay before it went to Intrum, but in one month they were unable to provide me invoices.

Then Intrum said they would send me the invoices as orange would no longer deal with me, wasnt their debt anymore, and then Intrum took another near month to send me invoices, and as stated, they sent a betreibung before I received the invoices.

So, in summary, the contract is cancelled, by orange, the fees are cancellation fees and the several months of invoices not received, and now intrum justitia fees on top, and a betreibung received before I got the invoices.

My last attempt at seeking clarity on the betreibung status post payment just received this reply:

" Yes when you paid in full we will remove the executions completly and there will be no record regarding the above mentioned claim.

Kind regards

Intrum Justitia AG"

This seems to indicate then that I will get what I want, i.e. complete removal. Agreed? And if I didn;t, is this email enough to take action if they do not stick to their word?

20
Please stop bickering and looking for a way around having your name on a bad-boy list. If I am not mistaken, the records will show you had a Betreibung but is was paid in full.

Pay the bill. Get confirmation it is paid. Then politely ask the Betreibungsamt about your status. If it is still indicated, politely ask for it to be removed. If it isn't removed then mark it off to experience and a dumb decision... and get on with your life. It is not the end of the world.

Intrum Justitia... that is a story by itself. They cash in on 35-50% of the collected sum, and then some. If anybody wants an insight on IJ, please ask in a PM.

JC

Oh look, someone else that can't handle the heat in the kitchen.