How to the Swiss dig holes?

Daily Life, Swiss News and General Topics
1
Ok, they can build a tunnel a thousand meters benath the Alps with a huge tunnel borer. But how do they dig just a normal hole in the ground? The kind you might fill with concrete in order to set a fence post?

I am building a garden pergola. It has 4 posts that will be set on concrete, poured into holes that extend approx. 80 cm into the ground (to get below frost level, and avoid problems with frost heave).

It's a pretty simple thing. In the US at least, any farmer, or anyone who works in construction/landscaping/etc., or any handyman, or anybody who has been around long enough, would agree that the best method of digging the holes would be with a post hole digger and digging bar. (You break up the soil with the digging bar, then excavate with the PHD...simple.) After the hole is deep enough, and you set the post or pole or what have you, you can use the other end of the digging bar to compact the soil around your post or around the poured concrete. (In may case, i'm pouring the concrete into old 80cm lengths of 20cm plastic sewer pipe). The post hole digger is a fairly common tool in the USA. If you don't have one, you can likely find someone to loan you one. Growing up, we had several of them.

My dilemma is, the post hole digger doesn't seem to exist here. Neither does the digging bar. Ask the local farmers, and they've never heard of them.

I need my holes to be 80cm deep, but only about 25 cm in diameter. If I just use a regular shovel to dig a hole that deep, and need to have room to scoop out with the shovel, my holes will quickly turn into an inverted cone form (perhaps 75cm wide at the top) as opposed to a cylindrical bore with the PHD/digging bar method. Besides having to excavate and later replace approx. 3 times as much soil (hard clay), just using a regular shovel will loosen all of that soil, and I obviously don't want my posts to be set in loose soil. And there is no digging bar to re-compact the soil around the concrete form....

I saw a strange primitive hand auger for sale at Hornbach, and wondered if that is how it is done here. It takes a hell of a lot of force pushing down on an auger to excavate the soil - so i doubt it would be very effective. (There are similar tools in the US for digging fence post holes, but they are always heavy duty, motorized machines.)

Anybody out there been digging holes in CH? What's the deal? Is there some tool or method that i'm oblivious to, or are the swiss farmers a hundred years behind the times when it comes to digging a simple post hole in the ground ? (Like the Swiss carpenters using the 'doppel meter' as opposed to a retractable measuring tape...but that's another story)

Id love to hear an alternative before I go out there in the sun and have to dig 3 times as much or more than is really neccessary...

thanks

2
I've seen this kind of stuff in some big garden shops.

3
They all exist here I have worked with the swiss and they used all these items. Just go and look properly in Landi its not different here

4
I forgot to answer your question, about how we dig holes.

It's easy, we are so rich that we hire foreigners to do it.....

5
I've asked three farmer neighbors, and they hadn't heard of it. I asked the owner of a local gartnerei, and he hadn't either. I've checked in 2 different Landi's, a Hornbach, a Coop B&H, and a Jumbo...no luck yet. The closest i've come is my father-in-law saying he thinks he saw the local boy scouts using something like that once..(and he grew up on a farm!) But if you say they're out there, i'll keep looking...

thanks!

6
If you look at the majority of farms there is no need to dig holes as there is a minimal need for fences when everyone is trustworthy enough you dont need to fence your neighbours out

7
I agree the people are trustworthy....it's the cows that are an issue

8
I have seen people using a giant motor driven corkscrew machine.

Pictures of Erdbohrer http://www.google.ch/search?hl=de&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=142 2&bih=665&q=erdbohrer+mieten&oq=Erdbohrer&gs_l=img .1.1.0l10.3295.3295.0.8014.1.1.0.0.0.0.112.112.0j1 .1.0....0...1ac.2.24.img..0.1.112.38rYUB3D2DI

http://www.google.ch/#bav=on.2,or.r_...dbohrer+mieten

Hint, ask your local lanscape company if they will dig the holes for you, it might be cheaper and less hassle than hiring one and bringing it backwards & forwards.

9
If your quest for a post hole digger leads you to the Ausserschwyz area, I bought a very nice one at the Galgenen Hornbach a few years ago. Perhaps CHF 60-ish. You can also order one from the Landi catalog, but IIRC theirs was quite a bit more expensive than the Hornbach one.

We Schwyzers agree with Mr Frost: Good fences make good neighbors.

10
Aargghhh..the simplest of things get mechanized these days. Reminds me of the self-sanitizing toilet seat:

11
Confused Irish navvies are the best way ......... just place two shovels against a wall and tell him to take his pick

Cut off lengths of 10cm diameter plastic drain pipe can also be set in concrete, and once set any post or rod can be set in the pipe with more fresh concrete for greater true vertical accuracy.

Alternatively, the concrete inside the pipe can be drilled, once hard.

12
Thanks for the alternative method suggestion. I'm off to find a couple of navvies...

13
From what understand you'll need to go through the proper official procedure to be able to do this in Switzerland

First off you'll need to make an application to the Pfostenlöchersberechtigungszuweisungsamtsplanungsa bteilung in your particular Kreis. This needs to accompanied by a payment of 60 chufs. You'll receive, by return, an appointment, no sooner than 3 months from the date of application, where 10 bespectacled Pfostenlöcherprüfer/in will turn up and spend an hour taking every conceivable measurement of the intended hole, plus repeatedly questioning you on, and requiring documentation for, the exact dimensions and material of the intended post.

Once this has been done you application will be passed to Pfostensberechtigungszuweisungsamtsplanungsabteilu ng to ensure that all is correct. This will need to be accompanied by further payment of 60 chufs. The decision process will take 2 - 4 months and if the application is successful you will receive a letter say that your Pfostenlöcherszulassungsbewilligung can be collected from the Pfostenlöchersberechtigungszuweisungsamt. Included with the letter will be an invoice for 750 chufs to cover the visit and the endless meetings over which your particular hole was discussed.

From here you will need to contact an approved Pfostenlöcherfachgeschaft and arrange an appointment for the hole to be excavated. The appointment date will usually be 2 - 3 months from the first contact. The hole excavation will cost somewhere between 2500 and 3500 chufs, depending on size of hole and type of ground - hard ground costs more.

At this point you'll be able contact the Pfostenfachgeschaft and arrange for your shiny new post to be installed. These guys are generally quick so you can assume that you'll receive an appointment within 6 weeks from the contact date. They will bring the post specifically mentioned on your Pfostenlöcherszulassungsbewilligung and install it. Due to the complexity of installing a post with no more than 0.0001 degrees deviation from upright, required under law, this can take some time. Cost of this will be between 5000 and 7500 for the post and a further 6000 for the work.

If all goes well the entire process can be accomplished in less than a year.

14
All kidding aside, I think you will need some sort of permit since you have to make sure you won't hit any vitals like water, power, or gas. No, 80 cm isn't THAT deep, but the Swiss seem to be THAT thorough.

15
What makes you think I'm kidding?

16
You might need a permit, that, you have to see about at the Commune/ Gemeinde, but they should also have a plan which shows the approximate location of water, sewage , electrical lines, perhaps cable lines as well, on your property. That would be good to know , in any case, cause you would be liable for any repair on all of the above, in case of damage. Good luck on the project!

17
The project is in my garte plätzli in the local Schrebergarten. No need for a permit, although the familiengartenverien has it's own ridiculous set of rules for just about everything. Only clear corrugated plastic/poly can be used as roofing material. Clear! Everyone has to put an additional layer of something under the roofing if you want your pergola to do something altogether strange, like provide shade...

Yesterday I was left a note in the garden, telling me that the board I had leaning against my tomato hüsli, to store there until I need it, ist nicht erlaubt. Ahhh, what nerve I had to think otherwise. And the white styrofoam panels I put on the north wall of the tomato house to reflect light back on my plants - verboten. Nur farblosen materialen sind gestattet!

But at least I didn't have to erect a series of metal poles, depicting what the outline of my finished pergola will look like, and then have a series of meetings to discuss it over with the other garden neighbors...yet.

Also, it is forbidden to do any garden work on Sundays (no joke), so I guess i'll spend the afternoon on the first draft of my certified letter requesting the proper form from the Pfostenlöchersberechtigungszuweisungsamtsplanungsa bteilung....

18
So the wooden board and styrofoam are verboten, but you don't need a permit to dig an 80 cm deep hole? I dunno...what if the wood you use for the posts is the wrong color?

19
Then they won't be saying.....

20
No nooo, they will tell him after it is all finished.