I understand it is not generally permitted to undertake international travel while on sick leave.
I've been on sick leave longer than 30 days and a replacement salary is paid to me from the company's sickness insurance.
Can anybody comment on the implications of making a trip outside Switzerland, even if it is just going to do shopping in Konstanz for a day or go to visit family in the UK for a weekend?
Do I just lose the insurance payment for those days I am outside Switzerland?
Or does it mean the insurance payments will stop completely?
Can such travel be undertaken if I discuss it with my doctor and if they agree that visiting family is important for my recovery and without risk to my recovery?
I guess it depends on why you are off sick - and whether they insurance company believes travel is not possible while ill OR likely to make your condition worse.
Talk to the doctor - and take their advice
Do you a monitoring tag fitted somewhere? Otherwise how do people know you are shopping which is a perfectly normal activity.. does it say you need to be bed bound ??
Because no insurance company has ever thought about employing people to spy/investigate claimants.
I had an elbow operation several years ago and was signed off sick for 6 weeks. We went for a long weekend in Como whilst I was off and no-one batted an eyelid.
More recently, I flew to the UK whilst on sick-leave after my hip operation and again, no-one said a thing. Basically, if a doctors says you're OK to travel, but not to work, you should be OK.
I did look up the law on this because a former employer tried to get stroppy with me on exactly this point.
I was suffering from a nasty case of labyrinthitis - which basically means your balance is totally shot and I could not even stand up for the first two weeks. My job is constantly on my feet, dancing, singing (I work with small children) so I was signed off. As it got gradually better I was still signed off (in total 4 weeks) as the demands of my job were wholly incompatible with the ongoing symptoms. We got the opportunity to go on holiday for a few days (basically younger son is diasbled and he went into his regular respite care week when we always go away for a few days to relax). I asked the doctor and he positively recommended something gentle as being good for relaxation and recuperation. We went to Austria.
Employer suspected I was swinging the lead - but the legislation is very clear - you are off sick from the job you do. In my case, my job was physically demanding and it was important to not squash any small children by falling over etc, so although after 2 weeks I was able to gently walk about and take things easy, I was by no means capable of working. If my job had been, for example, a desk job, I would undoubtedly have been signed off sick for less time. It can also occur that you have more than one job - eg a desk job and a dancing around with children job. You can be signed off one job but NOT signed off the other at the same time.
So in conclusion, it is your capacity to do the job you do that is being looked at, not your capacity to sit on a train to Konstanz, or in my case, sit in a car and drive to Austria. The two are completely separate. And the insurance company is compensating you for your loss of earnings in not being able to do that job. Obviously if they have any doubts that you are not being wholly truthful, they would look to your doctor, so if you see your doctor regularly (as I imagine you do) do mention it to him/her.
In my case, my few days away was brilliant for my confidence (try travelling by train on your own for the first time when the last time you did it you ended up having crawl off the train on your hands and knees ..) and I am convinced that it enabled me to get independent much more quickly than if I had stayed cocooned at home. (My doctor thought the same too.)
If the insurance company can completely cancel the policy (and avoid months of payments to somebody who is long term sick) on the basis that somebody took a trip abroad, then they would probably go to some lengths to catch people. If they can only cancel the payment for the days you are abroad then there is much less incentive for them to spy on people.
I found comments in other threads suggesting that technically I am not eligible for NHS care if visiting the UK (now resident in Switzerland) and I guess that some people who are long term sick are not covered by travel insurance either so some types of complications that occur abroad could be much harder for the Swiss insurance company to deal with. I understand these may be some of the reasons behind the rules on travel.
However, I just want to understand the legal side of the issue: it is "illegal" as in a crime? Or it is just a loss of income for those days spent abroad? Are there other legal side effects, e.g. would the 3 month protection from termination be lost if an employee travels abroad while on sick leave?
It is case specific. In ECBs case a relaxing few days in Austria wouldn't be a problem. But a week windsurfing might have thrown up red-flags.
Insurance companies do investigate claimants - it takes 30s to find someone on Facebook - check photos etc.
Your best bet - is to discuss with your doctor what you intend to do.
I've had this situation in the last year, and basically you simply need a letter from your doctor declaring that you're fit to travel and take the intended holiday, despite still not being fit for work.
It's important to ensure you do this, both from the insurance perspective already mentioned, but also, of course, to be seen to be open with the employer in order to not cause any problems with them.
What do you have then that you're off sick? That might make all the difference.
Travelling while off sick even with doctor's approval is very much a grey zone. I highly doubt anyone will say much if you hop across the border once to go shopping. If you chill out at the beach on the Seychelles though, it's quite a different story (I know that's not what you want to do, but you get the gist).
The worst that can happen is a complete stop on payments, not just for the time you were away. But again, see above: why are you off sick? For how much longer? What is your doctor's opinion on all this?
And btw, it's not that difficult these days to find out where someone was at any given time.
I had definitely not intended to go off on a journey without asking the doctor about it.
I just wanted to understand the legal aspect of it: even if the doctor says it is OK from a medical perspective, does that mean the employer and/or insurance is bound to accept it? Or can they just veto it for example?
Not really. If you get approval from the doctor who signed you off in the first place (or a locum, or as was true in my case last year, the GP who'd referred me to the other doc, who was unavailable at the time I needed it) and it's made clear why a holiday/travel could be manageable, or indeed of benefit, while returning to work would still not be medically advised, there shouldn't be any problem with the employer or their insurers.
It was my impression that they couldn't "veto" it, but then my employer goes above the minimum legal requirements in some other ways, so I can't be 100% certain on this. And of course they retain the right to ask you to see a doctor of their choosing as well, but that's not only in the case of holiday.
Very case specific- and depends on doctor's judgement- which the insurance may still wish to get checked by their own doctor as said above.
And of course a huge difference between popping over to France or Austria for a couple of days, or flying to the Bahamas for 2 weeks.
In ECB's case, had she decided to fly- she would probably have been told it was not possible, for medical reasons- as labyrintitis is linked to the inner ear, and flying could have made it much worse and prolonged the illness. Traveling by train without huge differences of altitude was fine and helped her recovery, so great.
Just depend on what the health problem is, where you want to go, how you travel and how far + risks incurred by the location of travel, etc.
Could you (if you wish) give an indication of what the problem is, vaguely, and where you intend to go?
It is not just the loss of income payments you need to be concerned about, it the health insurance, the car insurance etc.... If you are off sick and have an accident you may find you are not covered or if you are abroad and need the health insurance and so on.
A friend of mine a few years ago had a minor car accident and the nice police man mentioned in his report that my friend had a bandage on his wrist. And that was it, the insurance company point blank refused to pay an compensation, so he ended up having to pay for the paint work on both cars.
Was that a Swiss insurer in CH? I would be very surprised if it was, but your friend broke the golden rule of never talking to the Police.....
I'm currently in an unfortunate situation due to travelling to a funeral outside of Switzerland whilst signed off sick.
The trip was overnight (out Friday, back Saturday) and was the decision to attend was taken fairly last minute, but with the blessing of my Dr.
A colleague decided to go out of his way to bring this to the attention of the Senior Management.
I now have a letter from the Dr (attesting to the fact she knew I would make the short trip, and that from a medical perspective this would be OK) and I've also checked with the insurers (no problem from their side either) but still I'm being told I broke a rule by not informing them first.
I agree it would have been pertinent to do this, and I regret not doing so, but the decision was made in a highly emotionally charged situation and I assumed informing the Dr would be sufficient.
I was issued a written warning but I didn't sign it first time because it doesn't state the 'law' which says I was obliged to tell them I was going. My boss has gone looking for it now and will re-issue the letter (I don't think this law exists)
Even he agrees he knew of no such law (and is totally sympathetic to the situation), but is now taking a 'rules are rules' stance.
My Dr is flabbergasted and is adamant I did everything right.
In a lot of instances companies, especially with an older chef tend to take the attitude that if you are too sick to work you are too sick to travel and act accordingly.
The company want to get rid of you, expect to be fired in the very near future. Nothing to do with what you did...........
Sounds like a delightful colleague you've got there.
If your boss doesn't find the law stating that you must inform them first and it's not written in your work contract then there's not a lot they can do about it. You had your doctor's approval and the insurers are happy and it made absolutely no difference in terms of your work.
If he does find this law that nobody seems to know about then I guess you'll just have to suck it up and accept the written warning.
Be aware of two things:
1. They don't need a law to give you a warning. The company can issue one warning any time and also if you don't sign makes no difference. They just bring in a witness who confirms you did receive such a warning.
2. Once your relationship with your boss and coworkers has reached such a low point start looking for a new job now. This is your best option as dreaming about forcing a company in Switzerland to employ and pay you for years is an illusion.
I just witnessed the dismissal of two employees at the company where I work in February: They were considered troublemakers and that was enough.