In Zürich, nothing one says is ever right, so there is no point speaking anything in Zürich. A finger is enough to get the only message I ever had to convey there.
So right! ... and everybody who is interested in this subject should probably read the following essay by one of the most renowned Swiss Germanists explaning why there is only one language called German in the German speaking part of Switzerland, and therefore we do not have to make a distinction in our constitution (and by the way: the rest of the book is a very enjoyable and enlightening one as well): Peter von Matt: Deutsch in der Deutschen Schweiz. In: Peter von Matt: Das Kalb vor der Gotthardpost. Zur Literatur und Politik in der Schweiz . Carl Hanser Verlag, München, 2012, ISBN 978-3-446-23880-0 , S. 127–138.
Actually, I do have a pretty good idea of what diglossia is since I spent 10 years living in another country with diglossia. I also know a thing or two about foreign language acquisition since I have both learned and taught languages.
Is it really too much to ask to be taught the local language/dialect *in* that local language/dialect? Other countries offer complete immersion courses for whatever language(s)/dialect(s) they speak. Beginner's books have lots of pictures in them and not a single word of English (or other languages/dialects). Teachers right from day 1 speak nothing but the dialect they're teaching. Why not here in Switzerland? Is it really too much to ask?
The logic of teaching Swiss German in standard German looks to me something this: Dialects A and B are related, and have an overlap region C. Learn dialect A first because it contains C which will then help you to learn B. That is of course flawed because B also contains C ! Why not learn B first to make it easier to learn A? In principle you could do it in either direction, but the Swiss force us to learn in one direction only. I wonder if this is a manifestation of xenophobia: the Swiss learn it one way, so make the foreigners learn the opposite way so that they'll never be one of us. Or is it self-deprecation in that they view C as belonging more to A than to B, so that B is the "deviant" dialect, when in fact C belongs equally to both?
First of all, I am the one who said that learning is always good, whatever your choice is. That really turns down my critical view down to a difference of opinion, which is the essence of a forum and life in general. Nothing more.
Linguistically, your reasoning doesn't hold because of what you and I understand differently by "contains". But pragmatically, your reasoning holds well. You'll have to be ready to learn the cases, the strong verbs and other basic structures through dialect rather than standard. Technically, there is nothing in the way for it, so please proceed. Being an experienced Linguist yourself will help because you will know right away what to ask. Just insist on a Dialect teacher with knowledge of grammar and you'll be fine.
i said "good luck, sincerely", remember? I can only reiterate.
This simply is WRONG. If you express yourself decently in Zürich, it will be ACCEPTED as RIGHT. In our house we had a Bayer from München who always found the right words in Zürich ........ and his language here was rather a mix of Müncherisch and Züritüütsch ... and was generally regarded as being charming
I very early learnt to know the dialects in the Hegau and in Singen and in Konstanz of what I regarded simply as Schaffuuuserisch and later on the various dialects of Bayerisch
Much earlier I had to get Schaffuuserisch on one side and Bärn-tüütsch mixed with Lozärnisch on the other side, and had to combine everything with Züritüütsch. The result `? Standard German
Thanks for including these links, Laertes. I found the essay very helpful in clarifying a lot of my own jumbled thoughts and impressions on the standard German / dialect thing.
So, I'm going to stick my neck out and give an opinion in spite of not being being a linguist or being fluent in one or more Swiss dialects. This subject is a minefield and outsiders (I'm speaking of myself here) wade into it at their own peril. I've been told by some Swiss that all foreigners must learn the local dialect; and alternately by other Swiss, that all foreigners should learn to understand the local dialect but should never try to speak it. This is a political and cultural issue that is going to take years to shake itself out within German-speaking Switzerland and my plan is to keep plugging away at learning to understand dialect but keep speaking standard German.
To the OP: Tuen Sie was Sie nicht lassen können. Roughly translated as "Do what you have to do" or "Suit yourself". Just keep in mind that standard German has an extremely complicated and inflexible grammar - well, at least for those of us regular schmoes. In my experience, when folks start with dialect and then try to learn standard they end up sounding (sorry!) like country bumpkins. Now don't get all riled up - I'm not saying that dialect is spoken by uneducated people! I'm saying that those who speak standard German that is unintentionally "flavored" with dialect sound uneducated. I have a couple of friends (one of whom has lived here for over 20 years and is a Swiss citizen now) who took that route and, well, I kind of cringe for them when they speak standard German However, if you never plan to speak standard German - just want it for reading then what the heck, go for it. If you're just going to be speaking German amongst Swiss friends then it's entirely appropriate.
Are you saying that the Swiss sound like country bumpkins? Because that's exactly how they learned things: first Swiss German then standard German. Do the Swiss themselves wish that they learned things in the opposite order?
CH people do NOT "learn" the dialect, they just speak it as they hear it from parents and relatives and neighbours. When you among CH people speak about CH-German people, everybody breaks out in laughters
No, not at all. I'm talking about people who learn German / Swiss German as a foreign language. More specifically, foreigners who learn Swiss dialect first and then try to learn standard German.
It is possible and common for adults to learn a foreign language quite fluently, even flawlessly. Thus if a foreign adult learns Swiss German quite fluently, and then learns standard German afterwards, why won't he/she sound just like a Swiss when speaking standard German? Perhaps your country bumpkin friend just needs more exposure to proper German and more practice?
I have been called a farmer by more than one shopkeeper, but who cares? the beauty of learning dialect being that you can experience the joy of speaking it with friends and then switching to English when a German comes around.
Swiss German has exactly the same. If you want to get read of cases, you'll have to learn low-German dielects, not an alemanic one. For verbs, any dialect is more complex than standard language because the grammarians cleaned up the place, dialects keep all kind of strange archaisms.
Faltrad, I have to bow to your superior knowledge - I am still trying to get my standard German up to a high level and then (actually this coming year, I hope) I'll try to tackle Zurich dialect. Up until now i've had a very passive approach to Swiss German, just listening and not being too hard on myself if I haven't understood. What I find frustrating is when people at work speak dialect at a meeting or with me personally and I am either left out or I have to interrupt to say "Please, speak standard German." That gets old fast. But that will come eventually. As for standard German, it's hard enough! I'm currently taking a German grammar course and have to admit that the more I learn the less I seem to know!
As far as my friend goes, yes, she would certainly learn the rules of standard German if she really applied herself. But honestly, she has to decide if it is worth investing the time and energy. And this is not the best place to learn standard German - you don't really hear that much of it. Since she speaks Zurich dialect well enough and understands it quite well she isn't exactly motivated to do the work. If she really were serious about it, I think her best option would be to bite the bullet and go stay in some German city for a few weeks to take an intensive grammar course. That would do the trick.