But, the most interesting part is the highest rated comments. People telling not enough people is learning a trade. Students that get everything financed and only study are useless. Part-time workers/students are parasites. Students should pay more of the education. So, if there were a referendum tomorrow, the proposal for students paying more would get some votes.
Back to reality, Switzerland has a perennial need for workers with tertiary studies. That’s the reason we’re here
I wouldn’t complain at all if university is made less attractive for today’s young people. Then, a few years down the road the educated workforce is even more scarce and the only way out if higher salaries. Go populism!!! Where can I get a sticker for my car supporting the proposal for students to pay more?
Ironically, one of the axioms of capitalism is that you cannot choose winners.
FWIW, once I met a "social science guy" making more than enough per year (part-time, probably twice or more than me) while doing part-time consulting for pharma. This guy gave a 2 day course on "how transition from university research to industry". I'm still thankful for that course
Society shouldn't aim to choose winners at bachelor level. We don't know the future. And we shouldn't forget how important are lawyers, accountants and people dedicated to sales no matter their bachelor.
There will always be someone who takes advantage of the system. When I was a student in the US in the past century a colleague, who even had kids, was changing his major evry 2 years to keep from graduating, just to continue his financial aid. And tuition at a state U was cheap back then.
IMHO, it would be a big mistake to make students pay. Especially due to a certain number not working enough. Most students have it hard enough concentrating on their studies, let alone than having to worry about financing it. And in reality, many students do hold part time jobs just to make ends meet and pay the high city rents. I just dont buy it that the poor Migros employee is supporting our future doctors.
education should be relatively cheap right? you've already got the buildings and teachers there and so the marginal cost of an extra student should be negligible.
One the reasons you find PhD positions are mostly taken by foreigners is because very few Swiss want to lose 4 years of nice income. PhD has a very expensive opportunity cost. A difference of 50-70K per year between going to industry with a masters and staying in formation and research.
Postdoc salaries are good (80K starting) - if you get something like an Ambizione or a researcher position you're looking around 95-105K to start (granted, there are few positions). In my field is already 10's of thousand francs higher than what my peers make when they went into industry after their Masters here in Switzerland.
Another reason, Swiss people don't like moving from their family centers. It wasn't so long ago that a foreign exchange in my old programs counted just as much for someone who lived in Bern and did 6 months in the UK, and someone else from Bern who did 6 months in Neuchatel. So to get someone who has to move around from Uni to uni in Switzerland to hunt positions, is not very attractive to a Swiss person compared to the Auslander that has less ties.
I'm surprised this is so much of a "thing" in Switzerland. The apprenticeship scheme is a good, robust alternative to higher education, the spread of expertise and learning must be fairly even, compared to elsewhere.
How much did you earn during PhD? How many years, 3 or 4? I had 80% SNF funding which was ~45K p/a before taxes and social deductions. I'm not complaining about the system. I'm just sharing my experience, and the comments and choices of master's students I worked with.
Of course, postdoc is another story and you even have a bit of control by writing a good proposal that suits your interests. But, that doesn't erase the opportunity cost of 150-200K of a PhD.
I was 45 initially, and roughly 50 at the end of my 4.
Colleagues went into work at around 60 ish.
Assuming an increase of 2% per year on both our salaries, after 4 years they were ahead by some 60K but now 4 years later we are on par and my salary ceiling as an academic in Switzerland is dramatically higher than their salaries in my field. In the last 4 years my postdoc salary has gone up by over 10%, without any change in my working position.
One colleague did manage to become a group leader in his field, and he makes buck but he's also burnt out by it.
What should be fixed is the lack of regulation of the 2nd Pillar management and the high unaffordable medical insurances. Guys running these operations are reaping it all.
Why should “Switzerland” cough up? Why not get the “many people working here who have been educated in other countries” to reimburse their home countries from their fantabulastic Swiss salaries?
That Switzerland should rethink at least the investment in local medical education is clear. Strange that foreign educated profiteers try to salve their personal guilt of having “deserted the homeland” by such call outs...
Only 60K after masters? On Earth Science, there's great demand for new graduates around the world. It's around 80K for 100%. Extra bonuses for people willing to work in a mine at the end of the world. That's how I estimated the opportunity cost for PhD in Earth Science. Earth Science is an umbrella for geology, geophysics, hydrogeology, atmosphere, soil, etc.
Interesting how it refers to men working part time. We cannot have it all. If we want men to be equal partners in partnership then it is likely they will also work part time.
My generation (mid forties now) was fed the bit that you can have it all, but let's face it, not likely to happen or to lead to burn out.
I am glad the younger generations are choosing to do it differently.
Having said that - university is basically for free in CH, if we doubled the fees I do not think it would change the amount of people studying so maybe start there?
In the 60's so 60-70K but I'm talking about the Swiss market and also some 8 years ago too, salaries are likely decently higher now I'd assume.
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Found a document from CHGEOL, that put the median at 79500 Brutto for those between 0 and 4 years and 90K at 5-9 years. So much higher now.
Of course abroad you can do well; when I finished my bachelors we were being offered 80K to work in the mines up north with a signing bonus of a few thousand if we decided only to do our bachelors in 3 years instead of 4. But that was when things were booming.
Depends really on the field. In Computer Science someone who'd be accepted for a postdoc atETH is likely to lend a 200k+ job elsewhere anyways.
A friend got offered 40k for a postdoc in social sciences at ZH Uni some years ago.
Either way I find the proposal absurd. People in Switzerland lack initiatives to study anyways imo. This can make the situation only worse. Not to forget that ETH has huge drop out rates. Fees are low but opportunity cost is the main factor imo.
A move like this would create bigger social barriers and low utilization of human capital.
Furthermore primary schools and high schools have also very high costs in Switzerland. Should we also make people pay for them? Where do we draw the line?
I was a perpetual student for a while. My federal loans were such that if enrolled for at least 6 credits per term, payment was deferred. For many years, it was far cheaper to pay for 6 credits and take interesting classes than to pay the loans!