Unemployment declaration start date (EU/B permit) late - will previous month be lost?

Visas, Permits, Passports and Naturalization
1
I didn't found an exact match for this question, if it exists, forgive me.

This is the situation.

I am 2 years in Zurich, working for a company as contractor, with a contract of 2 years continuous work (the company 'lend' me -acting as agent- to a big bank here).

I was promised a renewal, and (sic) this never came. Instead my contract expired (31/12/2011), I got paid last month normally, and that was it.

I searched for a month for a new job (like *REALLY* search, calling, passing interviews etc etc) but since February came I decided to go for the unemployment benefit, where, to my surprise (don't laugh, I didn't knew) they informed me that I should have applied there on Jan 2, 2012.

Anyhow, since I'm in computer programming, I did applied on Feb 6 and I do have all these forms (formulars etc) and all emails and 'forensics' that I was searching for a job etc, and I only wait for a yellow paper from my company to go to this Unia working agency.

This is the question. Will they refuse to give me the January benefit? Should I do something BEFORE I go to Unia?

Apologies if it sounds silly, I really am in a desperate position here, so, laughs will be accepted but your advice/know-how will be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance..

2
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Officially you have to be applying for jobs for 2 months or as soon as you know you have no work if less than 2 months before you are entitled to anything - and even then there are waiting days.

If you haven't been applying for enough jobs (10-14 per month) then you are also open to punishment days so if you have any emails etc it helps. Also if you have emails about the promised extension that didn't come it would also help.

Depending on your RAV advisor and interpretation of the rules it could be that you don't get any money until end of April. I don't think you will get anything for Jan or Feb, and then the waiting days and possibly punishment days kick in. Punishment can be between 0 and 90 work days - I think if you get more than 5 for what you've explained you can challenge it because it seems unreasonable.

3
Thank you for your answer. My dates of employment were Feb 2010 upto 31/12/2011 and I went to RAV at 6/2/2012. They didn't told me anything about dates etc, I found out later in internet myself

I have all emails from January and February (upto now) and I have 16 emails, the whole form, for January (printed ads+apply+answers) and another 12 for February (upto today) and I am expecting to go to Unia tommorrow or the day after.

Based on the above and to the best of your knowledge/experience, you think Jan and/or Feb benefits will be less or not given?

Again, thanks for the reply, kindest regards

4
Sorry, also another question (on-side with the above): if in the mean time you run out of money (ie for rent) is there any provision for this, or basically is like dead-in-the-water?... I mean, if they start to pay something (anything!) will this be by end of February or it's going far away into the future?

Again, thanks for all the answers and opinions..

5
They need the yellow form and then it takes time to work out what you're entitled to, and you will get a letter telling you what the amount will be. It won't mention waiting days/punishment days etc, that will come later.

To be honest I don't think you will get anything in Feb, and lucky to get something in March. If you run out of money before then I guess you go to the social amt, but where/how etc I have no idea.

6
Zero chance for January , you have probably done enough so your waiting period will start in February , upto 25 working days depending on salary . I guess you will get a payout for march, possibly part of feb if your a lower earner.

7
I second that. It took me nine weeks to get an unemployment payment. Same situation as OP- I didn't go in right after I found out I would be unemployed. Between the normal "waiting period" then from when I met the RAV counselor and my first month's job searches were processed, that is what it turned out to be. And I didn't get paid for the the time in between with the first payment. March sounds possible depending on when your meeting with the RAV counselor falls in February.

8
Generally one would be assume that contractors are well paid, I believe the average family in CH has 5500 a month to live on, after 2 years of living here don't you have any savings to tide you over ?

9
Thank you for all the answers.

For arguments sake, (I understand that Jan is lost, just to follow the thoughts) I made some sincere tries out of luck. I was waiting for my renewal and I thought what if the big gorgeous bank breaks the promise (which is *exactly* what happened). Noone said to me that I should have been looking for a job and in case someone wonders, my IQ is in the three-digit area and I wouldn't have taken the risk whatsoever (imagine now, with two kids).

When I enroled to the RAV, Feb 6, I took with me all January emails and stuff and the RAV lady said to me that I should be given them out to an agency, where I chose (without knowing anything, just based on proximity of the offices) Unia. I wrote to my company giving them the yellow form, they emailed me back with the form completed (scanned) and they said they posted, so I expect it any day now.

By this time, I have proof of job search from January and February. But I wasn't expect the oops-sorry-f-off policy if you turn to RAV a month after your end of contract.

Agreed. My stupid, stupid mistake.

An answer to the last question. I am very very well paid. My salary was well above good standards. My mother got cancer, I got relocated here, I lost my father, got divorced, married (my wife has a kid from previous) and got a little boy who's the light in my life.

Sorry, I missed the chance to put an extra million dollars on safety and I *did* the mistake to wait for a renewal before going to RAV, although I was searching for a permanent job at the same time (because of my son).

So I guess I have a one-month gap to fill in at least, and this is just because I didnt show up to RAV. Ok. Lesson learned.

For all those interested of what will happen when my yellow form arrive and I finally go to Unia, I will keep you posted so the next poor guy/lady will be (hopefully) prepared.

Now I must move to the thread "what happens if you dont pay your rent for a month"...

10
You should go to the RAV before the end of the contract if a new one has not been signed, you can leave it until the first day of unemployment however they will tell you what is required from you before the event, which in many cases will be helpful.

11
Hello everybody - thanks for all the answers. If interested, I wil keep you posted on this thread, so others may benefit from my experience/fall.

The yellow paper arrived today (company deayed as always) and tommorrow will go to Unia with a 9-inches pack of papers. I will keep you posted on what happened.

Concerning social help:

The link is here: http://bit.ly/zjMxGd

I called and booked an apointment with a Mrs Bencher for near end of month. They couldn't make it earlier, so for that month rent I should probably go beg some friend to help or we're scr*d.

The nice thing is that it's in ENglish. The questionmark is if they are-allowed/have-authority/can-and-will help with this. It's so peculiar situation, I will have to ask for a loan for my rent despite the fact that I'm enroled for unemployment's benefit. I'm sorry sounds like a farse.

Anyhow, these are the news, I will post again when situation changes.

Lessons learned:

1. Swiss don't think like ordinary people. If you kiss a Swiss guy he'll probably reserve marriage date just in case he proposes to you after 10 years. BE PROACTIVE AND THEN BE PROACTIVE AND THEN BE MORE PROACTIVE. They don't laugh if you just got a job and you go and ask questions about unemployment, they think you're serious.

2. They follow the rules no exceptions. So, if you're pregnant and inside the ambulance with blood on your mouth tell the paramedics that you forgot your permit home, SERIOUSLY, they will probably drive back to get it. BE INFORMED ON ALL RULES, THEY DONT CARE ON YOUR SITUATION, THE IMPORTANT THING IS THE RULE. You cant beat this system.

3. DON'T TRUST. Swiss guys/business/corporations give you an air of 'swiss quality', security, we-have-rules-don't-worry-ness kind of thing.DO NOT BE FOOLED. They are people like the rest of us. Swiss megabank and swiss little corporation, both, told me my contract is being renewed. Then an Indian guy (sorry nothing to do with Indies, I have a billion Indian friends - that's merely a situation-specific comment) appears, and because he (the actually) was 3 Sfr cheaper I was history.

Thanks for reading and thank you very much indeed for your time. As stated above, I will keep everybody posted, I gues with another two three posts, just so that they know what happened at the end.

Thank you all indeed, kindest regards.

12
To get through this difficult period of your life please realise there are laws covering unemployment payments. All the RAV staff will be following these laws and will be informing the UNIA (Your Arbeitslosenkasse) of how many days they must pay you.

The laws state you have to be seen to be actively seeking employment. If you are sitting at home they can't see you are seeking work can they?

To avoid further surprises have you given the RAV the following? If not do it tomorrow!

1. a detailed personal CV (Lebenslauf)

2. photocopies of all your diplomas from age 16

3. photocopies of previous employment references

4. example of your standard application letter to employers

5. 2 passport photos

6. photocopy of your permit (Maybe also your passport)

7. completed salary statement yellow form from last employer

8. evidence that you have been looking for employment (copies of letters sent, telephone logs, copies of e-mail sent & received)

If you haven't handed all this stuff into the RAV the payment clock will not start. You must hand them in immediately! You then have to wait a few days (Maybe 3 ?) and any punishment days, then you will be paid on the last working day of the month. You have been looking, so probably no punishment days will be given.

About the 25th of each month you have to complete a form listing all the contacts you have made in your job applications.

Within a short time you will have to attend a one day course explaining how the RAV system works.

Your present job is to find a job! So try and work with the system, not against it.

If you need money, you can go to your local social services office. It will take them about a week after you have given them your complete application. They don't give loans, only grants, but you will have to show them all your family's financial statements, so maybe start applying tomorrow?

I was unemployed and then on the social: it isn't very pleasant, but you can overcome the difficulties.

Good luck!

13
Thank you indeed for your post, it helps also others not just me.

However, this is what happened.

I found and went with all the paper you mention in RAV.

Over there, they took:

1. CV

2. Certificates (simple copies, some not translated)

3. Photos (2) passport size

4. B-Permit was just checked - not taken photocopy

5. AHV card was just checked - not taken photocopy

6. A form of declaration of lost job.

Now, they present me a list of 6-7 Arbeitlos (work-lost agencies, sort of saying) and I chose one near me in Oerlikon (as stated before).

Over there, I have to go and present:

1. The yellow form.

2. B-permit (I bet again just checking me out)

3. AHV card (now they want it phtocopied)

4. Forms that I tried to find job (I have, as stated, both for January and February, almost all full, with copies of the actual job posting, application email, reply that they got the application, cv copy, and denied application email when denied, otherwise I wrote in german 'pending')

Your comment:

"Your present job is to find a job! So try and work with the system, not against it."

As if I don't want/care/tried. You comment implied the self-evident.

Nevertheless, the primary objective is to pay my current's month rent. THEN find a job. And I don't fight the system (how should I? I WISH I had some money back and live 3-4 months easily throu this and NEVER HAVE TO PUT UP with those gents and ladies in all agencies - nothing against them, just don't like to be customer of RAV)

As for the social, don't understand really. What's the difference between loan and grant? As I mentioned (I think you don't read all comments.. ) I booked appointment to ask for a rent's worth loan (or something like this) so, exactly because as I said I was very well paid and they will probably do not believe the need and they will refuse (or maybe are not allowed to) to grant a short term loan of a couple of thousands.

Actually, if a guy like me was there, saying this story, hmmm

Probably I wouldn't approve this loan to myself !!! Or if I did, I would request full repayment in a month or two. Anyhow.

All I am saying is that I am trying to survive until this st**pid unemployment benefit arrives and I'm back on my feet again.

: if it wasn't for the German language, I would have found a zillion jobs. So maybe if I survive next month I put myseld on this objective. Otherthan that, with so many years in banking, and with programming degree, believe me I don't think this unemployment sh*t will go more than a couple of months or three to the most. The biggest enemy is outsourcing and you kill it if you speak German.

AND

Excuse me, what is this B*SH*T about punishment days! First time in my life I hear PUNISHMENT because I tried to find a job BEFORE I go to the unemployment's office ! So they punish the unemployed?!!!

Yeap, sounds like Swiss hospitality.

The best thing: there is NOTHING about the calculation of this "punishment" days or whatever, there is NOTHING about what happens if you don't go the first day (all official sites state: you MUST go the first day. DA! And if not WHAT?! They do NOT tell you! And you find out later that punishment is something like "HA! You didnt declare yourself?! Good! S*d off now and we'll pay you next month!" so excuse me for being furious but this is outrageous!

Find another way to 'punish' all those low-level guys that are trying to eat your capitals, not by burning the earth under everybody's feet ! Really !

For example, tell me "Ok sir, you did that foolish thing, so, for THAT days, you will have to pay BACK your unemployment when you get a job, like, we'll keep from your employer's salary to you one week per month"

Isn't it more fair?! At least I would have to live for a bl*dy month ! And not beg my friends for a loan and live on bread and cucumber just because some stupid company never told me that I have to declare myself to RAV office *OR*.......

Anyhow, as I said, all will come and worst case I will have to learn German in those RAV meetings, which is super if you consider that they don't charge you but the other face of the coin is that they treat you like 'persona non grata' plus I guess not all nuclear phycisists are in there, so you have to really be a tight-a*s and concentrate on how NOT to make friends from those that will evolve to problems..

My RAV introduction day is on March 6. Which is faaaaar away unfortunately. The letter was a breath of fresh air: take public transportation because the parking space is limited (!!!!!!! absolutely no comment !!!!!!) the doors will be closed on 8:30 and if you're not there probably your unemployement benefit will be cut off !!! And that's for knowing how the RAV works !!!!! So from the employee that spoke English but she said 'Nein' when I politely asked her if she does, up to the introduction letter and the "punishment" (!!!!!) of the lost month, my feeling is to GET OUT OF THERE ***SUPER_ULTRA_FAST*** because I already don' feel confortable with what I saw.

Now, I don't know what you say about fighting the system and that, but unless if you have other reasons, staying there is fatal because several banks do not require 3-months gap between jobs the last 5 years. In other words, I'm ........ big time, I got two kids, and the RAV wants to pay me after some period because... I wasn't punctual with my declaration! UNBELIEVABLE but as I said well above:

Lesson learned.

14
Apologies on the length of answer and kindly do not think I am the 'bad avenging' character or anything. Just a father that he's in a (hopefully just once) sloppy curve.

Appreciate all wishes for luck, and actually I'm gonna need all I can get.

Updates will follow !

Super thanks to all.

15
Wish you luck, keep us all posted as it is real life, reminder to people that companies can be heartless and just look at the bottom line.

The distance between the Wolf and the Door is closer than a lot of people think.

Myself having worked for one company non Swiss but in Geneva (Investment Bank) it was truly like the dark ages.

16
UNIA only pay money to people who cannot find a job, as opposed to people who don't have a job. There is a subtle difference.

January benefit you wouldn't have got anyway. On the kind of money you were getting last year you will have to be out of work for at least 20 days, maybe 25, counted from the day you registered as out of work.

But don't be downhearted. This isn't the UK and they are not going to throw you to the wolves.

17
Hello all.

As promised a small update.

Things are really really bad, in the sense of surprises.

1. There is a paper called

Angaben der versicheren Person fur den Monat XXX

where XXX is the month, and you deliver it to the agency (UNIA in my case)

I thought I had to deliver it on RAV so I waited until my consultation day. BIG mistake, thank you RAV for misleading me YET ONCE MORE.

2. The RAV lady that I got interviewed by, (Sara S.), was truly remarkable. She politely offered to speak English (WOW) and she knew quite good about jobs, online profiles (LinkedIn, Xing etc), market situation, job offers etc etc. I was absolutely surprised.

HOWEVER.

HA ! Oh no, you don't get pass that easy. SUDDENLY a new regulation appears !

This lady pops up a paper with title

3.02.08 Leistungsumfang

05.1 Allgemeine Wartezeiten

yeah whatever

and over there, there is a left column with salary scale and on right column says Wartezeit which roughly translates for "waiting period".

But it's not a waiting period... poor me...

It's DAYS YOU DON'T GET PAID if your salary is THAT high !

Imagine me with a big fat salary (they don't care if for any reason you don't have money now - the polite advice is "you should have had")

20 days lost.

I burst to tears. Sorry, I admit it, I burst to tears. I said to the lady, all we have is 12 francs. Our VISAs are blocked, we borrowed from friends, and all we waited is to get those money to start surviving.

It seems that if you have a child the lost days are 5.

But it was too late. I finally hated myself from being in such sh*ty situation, the polite lady was feeling sorry for me and I have had to go to UNIA and give them the other paper I said before.

It was also sugested to me to crawl to Socia bureau see if I can get a loan to pay for my rent and get coupons for food.

Well ladies and gents, it, I'm out of here THANK YOU SWITZERLAND yes now I understand that you cannot live in this country, unless if you have money.

So I called anyone I know for some cash, I will send a letter to my bank for the VISAs (let them take the cheapest IKEA I have for furniture, paid A FORTUNE in IKEA Zurich ) and I will try to go to taxation office and see why my tax return (cash I should have received) is not here yet since one year !!!! OH yeah, when they owe you money, there's no rash...

The polite lady informed me that I have to do 10 applications per month.

I will do 30.

18
I am just wondering.

What THE do they actually profit, by keeping us on the death line. We're now selling our babies staff at ricardo.ch in order to survive and the next month they HAVE to give us 7500

WHY THE *&#(*&$)(*)(*@^&* DO NOT GIVE US AN ADVANCE.

And if I find a job, happily pay the back AT ONCE.

But there is no such provision.

To the STUPID MINDS here, the biggest your salary, the less important is the unemployment benefit. As if it's a hobby of yours. And why exactly in this case the scal stops at 125,000 CHF?

So a guy who earns 130,000 CHF (which by the way is a good salary of a middle executive, for example an employee or AVP in a bank - NOT something amazing!!!!!) will lose the same 20 days of his unemployment benefit with a guy who earns 1,000,000 CHF per year !!

Great......

Thanks for reading so far, DO NOT GET UNEMPLOYED unless you have substantial savings and be aware that RAV and UNIA are very good connected under the table but actually playing table tennis with your papers. And if by any chance you're just English speaker, oh boy...

Oh dear dear dear...

19
Do you know any other country with such a generous uneployment system where you can get 80% of your salary for upto twice the averege salary? It's pretty amazing.

I have not had a full time job in 5 years, I work freelance & can wait upto 5 months to be paid, you really do not know how lucky you are!

20
I had a similar situation to yours because the RAV took so long to pay (nine weeks but when all was over, it was three "billing cycles" and I had a lot of bills on 2nd and 3rd reminder) and relied on the generosity of friends.

I'm sorry you're angry and this is happening to you but remember that the economy is crap right now, a lot of people are on RAV, and there is a lot of paperwork to process and these people are overworked and dealing with a lot of sad cases.

Every time I went to the RAV for an appointment I saw people crying over money, I even cried once. Blame the economy, blame the big companies, but don't blame the RAV, their hands are tied and they have to clean up the mess the big companies have made.