I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but I am new to the forum (which I have to say is great ) but please could someone explain the difference between High German and standard German that they learn here in the UK ??
We are moving to Basel next year and I would like to start my 2 young children learning a little of their new language before we move, but all the resources I find are for German. Is this the same ??? unfortunatly I speak neither German or Swiss German, but have just purchased an Audio course in Swiss German to start me of.
There's quite a bit of a difference...more of a difference between SG and HG than Spanish and Portuguese, or so I'm told.
High German (Hoch Deutsch) is the official language and here it is spoken in the schools so kids start learning it at about 5 or 6, however the Swiss tend to make mistakes because it's not generally spoken on the street. Unless you speak damn good HG, if you ask a Swiss person to speak HG, they'll change to English (theyre not all that fond of HG).
SG (HG:Schweizerdeutsch SG: Schwiizerdueuetsch..sorry got no dots) is what everyone actually speaks. Also called Mundart and Dialekt. Every canton's SG varies e.g Zueriduutsch is fast, Bernduutsch is slow, Walliserduutsch is incomprehensible. However, SG is never written down (well, the young ppl do it), so there's no spelling etc..the written word is always HG.
Radio and TV are in both.
Personally, I would recommend learning to speak HG and understand SG...speaking SG will come by itself.
If I understood the OP correctly, she's not talking about Schweizer Deutsch.
I've always thought High German and standard German were the same thing. The Swiss use the expression "Hochdeutsch" or "Schriftdeutsch" to clarify the difference between standard German (the standard written form of German) and Swiss German.
Swiss German is actually a dialect of High German. Then there is Standard High German, which is what people mean when they say High German around here.
Wikipedia explains all.
"In German, Standard German is often called Hochdeutsch , a somewhat misleading term since it collides with the linguistic term High German . Hoch ("high") in the term for the standard language refers to "high" in a cultural or educational sense, while in the linguistic term it simply refers to the Geography of Germany , High German of the Southern uplands and the Alps contrasting with Low German spoken in the lowlands stretching towards the North Sea . To avoid this confusion, some refer to Standard German as Standarddeutsch ("standard German"), deutsche Standardsprache ("German standard language"), or if the context of the German language is clear, simply Standardsprache ("standard language"). Traditionally, though, the language spoken in the high mountainous areas of southern Germany is referred to as Oberdeutsch ("Upper German"), while Hochdeutsch remains the common term for the standard language."
The biggest difference seems to be who is allowed to speak it. Schweizer Deutsch is reserved for the Swiss, and they seem upset when people try to learn to use it. I have found people that recognize me as speaking high German will seem upset if I even try to say things like "merci" or "schoenr tg" or "abig". I recommend keeping the audio course as it helped us all to understand the words. The ideal seems to be understanding what the Swiss say, but replying in high german like a good foreigner.
There is no such thing as "standard" German, but any German that you learn anywhere else in the world is in fact high German. The others posting on here were explaining the difference between Swiss and high German, which as you apparently already understand is significant, but what you call standard is in fact high german.
To make the story a little weird again: Why? High German is nowhere spoken in Switzerland as a daily language! It's Alemannic (some call it Swiss German - which is misleading), definitely NOT a dialect of High German. High German is however taught at schools (but in breaks, the teacher would talk Almeannic!), newspapers and books are written in High German. The Swiss think of High German as a foreign language, too!!!
Long, long threads have been written about this - and I bed someone will come up soon and pretend exactly the opposite of what I said . So I wished some real linguist would finally come up and clear the situation.
Still, if you want to be integrated into social life, you can't make it without Alemannic. It's up to you if you want to learn it one after the other or both together
I quite on intent did not read the other comments. Basically "High German" is the rough idea of the standardized language in use between Flensburg and Andermatt, while STANDARD GERMAN is the standardized compromise language in use in the same area. Even language teachers in Hamburg, Zurich, Leipzig, Basel, Frankfurt, Berne, Munich, Berlin, Vienna, Cologne, Stuttgart will apply a different approach to "Standard German" or written German. You however first of all, whether you will stay in Hamburg or in Luzern, should try to learn basic Standard German, with all the Grammar, Writing, Structure etc involved. And later on venture out into the local Dialekt/Mundart. And do not be discouraged if your German has an accent. Everybody in German speaking Europe has an accent !
Swiss German is a variety of Allemannic dialects spoken in Switzerland, southern Baden-Württemberg (incl Stuttgart), the Alsace (up to the Vogesen / Vosgues), in Vorarlberg and Tirol (Austria) and in southwestern Bavaria. As a British specialist, I met once in Aqaba, told me, what people who have grown up in these regions share is the use of a particularily "sharp" "S". This "S" was why he could say that I was coming from one of these regions. Amazing things happen in this world
Swiss German, as a part of Alemannic, IS HIGH GERMAN!!! Look it up wherever you like! The Wikipedia entry postet by Hash Brown says most of what's important. That's why I always use the correct term Standard German when I write about the language that is used in Newspapers, books, business letters etc. everwhere "between Flensburg and Andermatt." Even Oberwalliser Diitsch is highest Hig German!
Moat people not only in Switzerland use the term High German in a wrong way. Swiss German is High German, and so is Bavarian, Austrian, Suebian, Hessian German etc.. Standard German is High German too, but it's only a standardized subset of it. 90 % of the usage of the term High German is downright wrong, but frequent use of a wrong term doesn't make it right.
On this forum, I have been teased and also bitched at quite a few times for my usage of the term Standard German. I don't care. My linguistic roots are deep enough to keep me upright.
By the way, Zürihegel, why should "Swiss German" be misleading? Swiss German is a group of the numerous Alemannic dialects, and Alemannic is German. So what makes "Swiss German" misleading?
show the problem. "Hochdeutsch" in fact has TWO meanings, one being the Standard German which is roughly the "Written German" as usually referred to in Switzerland and one is the Alemannic/Bavarian etc variant south of the Taunus. This is why I always favour the term "Standard German" in contrast to the rich variety of German Dialects (Mundart).
Interesting. When I came to CH 20+ years ago, people used the term "Schriftdeutsch" for written and standard German. The term "Hochdeutsch" is something that has really sprung up in the last decade or so.
When everyone uses the term "Hochdeutsch" to mean standard German, the definition becomes as such. That's how languages evolve.
My favorite website for German-English words is leo.org. They have both high German and standard German as meanings for Hochdeutsch.
Right. So for most people, Hochdeutsch is the official spoken German and Schriftdeutsch is the official written German, which in the end, is really the same.
The term "Hochdeutsch" was used just as much or even more frequently than "Schriftdeutsch" already when I was a kid, and that was in the 'fifities.
Languages do evolve indeed, but when the specialists (in this case linguists) set clear standards and those standards are ignored by the mob, that's not evolution, that's barbarism, especially when that ignorance creates additional confusion.
Leo is a very basic dictionary, and it doesn't cover any of the details we are talking about right now.
See above: That's frequent usage but not entirely correct. And, to name just one example, the German Wikipedia uses the term "Schriftdeutsch," of which you say it's Swiss usage, as a normal synonym for "Standarddeutsch" ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standarddeutsch ).
The most important thing here, however, is the fact that the term "High German" in English does not mean exactly what "Hochdeutsch" means in German. In German there is the differentiation between "Hochdeutsch" and "Oberdeutsch," which is rarely observed in English, although the term "Upper German" exists also there. So please be careful. Many of the posts above do not even scratch the surface.
Yeah I know, a few EF members once called me a pedant. Sorry, but I like to use correct terms, because they can help avoid confusion. Language was invented to make things clear, not to obfuscate them or wear them down below recognition. Evolution of languages is useful as long as it makes things clearer or easier. Otherwise it has to be fought.
Many Swiss prefer the label "Schriftdeutsch". That bypasses the value judgment on the superiority of "high" German and avoids the altitude confusion of "upper" German.