Most important, Swiss German (a term that is widely used by Swiss people too, with no problems allegedly dating back to WWII or whatever) is just a subset of dialects of the Alemannic spectrum. In other words, Swiss German IS Alemannic indeed, but by far not all Alemannic is Swiss German. Suebian is Alemannic too, and so is Vorarlbergerisch, to name just a few.
Depends. Certain UNO agencies list Swiss German as a separate language indeed, in addition to Standard German. "Der Große Brockhaus," 30 volumes, the "Encyclopedia Brittanica" of the German Language, so to say, did the same for many decades. I don't know if it still does, though. On the other hand, many linguists object to that, saying Alemannic is just a German dialect.
Come on Wolli, those politician jerks simply can't get their tongues moving the right way! Pronouncing a rasping "nichchcht" as most Swiss do is laziness, not patriotism. Not mastering a decent Standard German accusative is stupidity or carelessness, not national defense against Nazis.
Most Swiss people who were born 40 years after the demise of the German Reich still are anable to speak a decent Standard German. They didn't learn that funny Swiss pronunciation, vocabulary and grammar from their great-grand-parents who stood at the border under arms during WWII.
In my short time here I have found that swiss find it amusing if I attempt to speak Swiss German, and I find that only people who are confident in English will switch to English when I ask in a panic, if they can speak High German, others will switch and speak to me in HG ( schiftsprache)
But quite many of these politicians would have had a far better command of Standard German, had they tried. Whether it is lazyness or stupidity or some anti-German notions of course may be a question. What is bad for the Standard-German abilities of young people now is that cult with dialects, and with all those heavily provincial "Lokal-Radiosender". And even TVDRS switching the weather-forecasts from Standard-German to dialect, and using dialects, even weird ones, increasingly often. It is quite good that the Canton of Zurich recently has tightened the language rules for the schools again and forcing teachers to carry lessons through in Standard German. The reason was that many teachers increasingly also spoke dialect during the lessons, for instance in mathematics, history and geography. This is now banned. Banned again actually.
Would you, indeed?
Then why, pray tell, is this Scots "dialect" protected and promoted as a
language by the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages .
.
I totally agree. If those politicians etc. tried I wouldn't call them lazy. I also agree with you as to the very bad effects of using dialects in e-mail, SMS (that's texting for 'Merikins) etc..
It's not much of surprise language skills go down the drain in a generation that doesn't read anything but operating system error messages and silly jokes in gawd-awful lousy spelling and doesn't write anything but their dialect, using their own, home-made orthography.
And so it was quite positive in the Tagesschau today. The new president of the Ständerat (Council of the States) speaking Standard German acceptably, the new president of the National Council (House of Representatives) speaking quite a remarkable Standard German, and Bundesrätin Widmer-Schlump speaking a good Standard-German as usual. So that not all hope is lost
Let's cut to the chase. Is Swiss-German intelligible to a person fluent in Standard German? If it isn't, then it isn't merely a German dialect or "bad German" but a separate language.
Edward J. Cunningham
Derwood, MD
Correct, that usually is the criterion used in linguistics. The answer is pretty close to no. I mean, it's not totally unintelligible, just like native German speakers can understand some Dutch, or I, having learned Latin, French, Italian and Romansh (among others) can understand some Spanish, Portugese etc..
Of course, the closer to Switzerland the place of origin, the easier it is, and even pretty easy for people from other Alemannic areas, but, say, someone from Berlin will be pretty lost in a Swiss German conversation without translation. That's what my German friends told me.
If the difference between Swiss-German and German is more like the difference between German and Dutch (!), then is it fair for Swiss in the non-Swiss-German speaking cantons (and also for newcomers like those in this forum) to study a language that their fellow countrymen only use when speaking to outsiders from other cantons (possibly even German-speaking cantons with differing dialects) and not what they actually speak amongst themselves? Is standard German just used as a lingua franca in Switzerland, like English or French?
Edward J. Cunningham
Derwood, MD
P.S. I just realized that I also hit the nail on the head why some of the French Swiss are upset at certain cantons teaching English before French.
Yes, and I would win any bet that even most of the German speaking Swiss in the Zurich or Basel or Luzern area could not see a difference between St.Galler Rheintal Dialect and real full Vorarlbergerisch (as there is none).
And there is a dialect inside Switzerland in the Engadin, which to me sounds like Münchnerisch, while that Südbadische Mundart, known as Baaslerisch is ways away
it is intelligable to persons fluent in standard German, if they are from south of the Taunus, but difficult for North Germans, who also do not understand Bavarian "language" .
By a strict interpretation of your theory, there are up to five German "languages".
English in all parts of Switzerland is the language of international transports, of tourism, of the export industry and of international banking. And east of Berne, most people have far more need for English than for French. In Geneva at the other hand, people are in need of a good command of English far more than of a good command of German.
We came here about 18 months ago and before we left the UK we got the kids the BBC Muzzy course in German. It was a great help, suitable for the very young and older children and it helped me too. We got them from early advantage.
Well, I can tell the difference, since there is one. However, it's not that big indeed.
As for Samnaun in the Lower Engadine, that's indeed a variant of Bairisch (NOT Bayrisch), i.e. the dialect family whose main variants are Bayrisch (note the different spelling) = Bavarian and most Austrian dialects. So it's no surprise it sounds like Münchnerisch to you.
Baslerisch is not High Alemannic as all other Swiss German dialects are. That's why it is sort of a foreign body in the Swiss language landscape. No offense intended; it's what linguists say.
Well, almost. Linguistically, it's Südbairisch, but the sound as such is definitely one of a tyrolian dialect which again has nothing to do with the dialect spoken in Munich. The website of the village of Samnaun explains this phenomenon pretty well. There, you can also read why they don't speak Raeto-Romansh (anymore).
Looks as if a clarification is needed. I had a colleague once in military service in the Engadin, who spoke German in a way which to me sounded like Münchnerisch. Far more Münchnerisch in fact than Tirolerisch. I asked him about it and he said something about the Engadin-Austria border region where his dialect according to him is widespread and that it was a kind of linguistic island not connected to neighbouring Tirol. We in company had a contract driver of Tyrolean origin and I heard the explanations of the various delays in his mixed Tirol/Zürich dialect daily and as the saying goes even knew the cracks of the record !
As I wrote, the Samnaun dialect is a variant of Bairisch. Südbairisch is Bairisch too, isn't it? And the western Tyrolian dialect sounds similar because it's Südbairisch too, whereas eastern Tyrolian is Mittelbairisch.
By the way, Münchnerisch is Mittelbairisch too, so you can't say the two dialects have nothing to do with each other. By the way, Südbairisch has kind of a panhandle-like extension northward to Augsburg, and it nearly touches the western suburbs of Munich too. You bet there is a close relationship there.
Greybeard, can you tell the difference between Südbairisch and the Tyrolian spoken in Samnaun? I can! To my ears, it's a huge difference. In about the same as between the dialects spoken in Berne and Solothurn. Well, I think we get into such small details here that others must shake their heads...
To cut a long discussion short: don't bother with Swiss German - unless you are already proficient with High German!