Your thoughts on Swiss Secondary School

Family, Education, Health and Pets
41
We've three children, aged 18, 14 and 12. We arrived here nearly eight years ago. The eldest is in Gymnasium. The middle is in Secondär. The youngest in Real.

Possibly the youngest should be in Secondär, as she's currently getting very high marks in Real, so she may go up a level. Apart from her teacher, the other's form teachers are all English teachers, which is useful for us!

The quality of all three schools is pretty good, though there are always some issues. The kids seem to be better adjusted than those at the local international schools.

I think it's likely that all three will get degrees at some point. Depends how much they want to - I think they're all capable. But you don't have to rely on any school system for that. Consider the OU, for example. And many universities in the UK have places for mature students. No school system is perfect; but the Swiss system is pretty good. my eldest has had opportunities that he wouldn't have had in the British system. As others have said, a lot depends on the individual schools, so ymmv.

42
Maybe so yes, but the tendency is also there in the Suisse Romande. We're just not very extroverted as a nation and it really isn't much fostered in school.

43
But I am "ze welsch"...and I understand us better.

Seriously though, the OECD publish a report every few years on education in various member countries (known as the PISA report). It contains some really interesting comparisons. I would have attached the executive summary of the last report (2006) for anyone who felt like wading through it. Unfortunately for some reason or another it would not take the upload (probably due to size as it is 4.5 MB).

I would be happy to send it to anyone who sends me a PM with their e-mail address.

44
Thats one of the problems with Switzerland. A child at too young an age is expected to make certain decisions which can (and in many circumstances) should change as they grow up. Switzlerland does not understand "talent"...and by golly! forget it if your child says they want to be an astronaut ( or something the Swiss can't comprehend) the Swiss reply would be "das ist nicht moglich" "that is not possible" you must choose something else. Switzerland is good for toddlers and children up to about age 8 (maybe 9) after that the real brain washing sets in..There is no room for expression, to be spontaneous, to make mistakes, or be wrong etc...Switzerland does well for little ones and possibly old people. To "live" and find themselves young people have to experience a place outside of Switzerland...

45
I honestly feel that you are painting a picture that is way bleaker than it actually is. Having seen the product of schooling systems in the UK, the US and Canada, I feel that the Swiss system compares favourably. It does put pressure on children to perform, particularly at secondary level. Given the restricted number of university places, and the fact that the Swiss are of the opinion that not everyone needs to go to university, competition for those places is tough.

You are right that generally the Swiss do not like "unusual" things. People who are particulary talented may make their peers feel threatened or uneasy, but I feel that this is a reflection of Swiss society on the whole and one should expect schools to reflect a nation's society.

Finally, spending time in another culture is a positive experience wherever you come from. My kids have spent time in North America, Europe and Asia. The experience has made them culturally aware and in this world that is becoming smaller and smaller such an experience has got to be a good thing.

This being said, I have to wonder why the Swiss schooling system should be held to a higher standard those in the countries where we come from? Which country's education system is the benchmark? I would be interested to hear.

46
As my husband and I may possibly have children (something that had seemed a near-impossible feat just over a year ago), and would likely raise our children here (given that my family is both more able and more prone to travel), I have been reading this thread with much interest.

One thing that has struck me time and again when discussing the school system here with my husband and his family is this which Snoopy stated out plainly:

One of the issues I have with the school system in the US is that a lot of pressure is put onto young folks to go to college. Not only is there pressure to go but adults who do not have a college degree are belittled and demeaned at least a little, sometimes in less obvious ways than others.

Meanwhile, depending upon one's interest, I happen to think there is truly no reason for everyone to seek out a degree. For what reason does someone who is truly interested in being a "mere" electrician or mechanic (as example) need to get a degree exactly? There are many fields of work where attending university merely means a delay in potential earning rather than any truly tangible benefit. Apprenticeship programs would go a lot further toward reinforcing the value in such professions as well as providing folks a way to earn money rather than earning debt for a (for them) basically "useless" piece of paper.

I see nothing wrong with weighing a child's potential and interests at an early age and guiding them in the direction that seems correct for that child.

Being pressured to learn complex sciences and maths just to be able to enter a university so that you can start your life tens of thousands of dollars in debt... does that really make more sense?

47
I can agree with you on some points...But the most "important" point is that the person (or child) should decide not the system. Since the Swiss may drill into their heads at an early age "you can't because you .....) is very limiting to a child who may have ideas, ingenuity and the like. IMHO I would be prefer to be pressured to do better than to do nothing at all. Or to be told you can only be XYZ (as in the Swiss system)...USA is "far" more progressive...You can try, change your mind, check other opportunities...whatever. This is one of the reasons why Switzerland has to import so much of their talent...they don't understand it!

48

I can see that on one hand but on the other though, I know quite a few folks who went to Uni because they felt they had to, for one reason or another... and the degree has absolutely nothing to do with what they actually did with their life. (One example is the husband of a friend who got a degree in physics engineering to the tune of a $50k education - and went on to become a manager of an optics lab making maybe $40k annually, because that's what he actually enjoyed doing.)

I know others, my father being one (extreme!) example, for whom Uni just wasn't a fit so went on and got a job and later went to Uni with a much clearer idea of what they wanted to do with the "rest of" their lives.

My brother-in-law (who is Swiss) went and got a degree only recently and he is in his early 30s. I do not know what he did between age 16 and 30 but he's in some computer technology field now and enjoying it.

The sentiment I am seeing is that for some reason, some of ya'll seem to think (please do correct me if I am wrong) that unless you go to Uni at the "right" time, everything is over. It isn't. Some folks really need to live some life before they are ready to settle down for serious studies... often for them that involves having some serious work first.

I wish I'd had an opportunity to get my schooling in a system like they have here. I had way too many teachers and classmates who took inordinate amount of stock of someone's usefulness by whether or not you were "smart" enough to have studied trigonometry or physics in high school. The things I have always been interested in doing have NEVER involved a need for those and other similar level studies.

Meanwhile, if the concern is so great that your child get streamed into the schooling that will lead toward Uni, I suggest you spend time with your child and / or hire tutors to help be sure that your child is making the marks required for that goal.

Expecting the teachers and school system to make it all happen the "right" (in your opinion) way without your interaction will not work... no matter what country you live in or what their school system is like.

49
I really agree with you there Peg A, after all I just started going back to a vocational University now, (Fachhochschule in German) and I love it.

I've done a couple of years abroad, worked in CH and generally had to get a much clearer idea of what I exactly want to do with my life. And in the Swiss system you can always catch up with your education.

But if a kid really can't get a grasp of mathematics, why send him to a Gymnasium ? It doesn't make any sense at all, you need to be really good at a variety of subjects to enjoy it there.

Admittedly I don't know too many educational systems but I'm generally rather happy with the way it is here.

Everyone goes to University in France, but then they have 25% youth unemployment ...

50
The exact opposite is true. Either you graduate from high school and get an academic degree or you drop out of high school and practically never get a chance to be somebody. Of course there are exceptions, the famous American Dream etc., but they are just that -- exceptions.

In Switzerland there are lots of possibilities to change your path through schools. For instance, you can finish secondary school (in the USA that would mean you are a high school drop out, maybe eligible for flipping burgers at best) and go through an apprenticeship, but you still have the opportunity to switch onto an academic track.

You don't need a Master of Culinary Arts to become a great chef, and you don't need a degree in engineering for adjusting the injection pump of a car. Besides that, in a country like Switzerland, you don't need a college degree to get the feeling that you are a respected member of society.

The percentage of college educated people in a population is not a yardstick for the quality of education. Which reminds me of an old American joke: Q: What does the graduated mathematician who has a job ask his colleague? A: "With or without fries?"

I think the two systems are way too different to be compared in a simple A - B test. You have to factor in lots of things like the number of jobless people with college degrees vs. jobless people from "lesser" curricula, wage levels, usability of the school leavers in practical professional environments, etc..

Switzerland doesn't have to import talent because of the education system. Switzerland has a population that's smaller than many of the bigger cities in the USA, so the pool from which to scoop specialists is extremely small. On the other hand it is in the top league of high tech countries, which means the industry has a huge demand for high-caliber specialists.

51
In my experience, your son's German is not going to be the sole basis in determining whether he will be placed in the Bez, rather than the Sek. The teacher decides, but other factors are taken into consideration including the intelligence and how motivated the student is and how hard they work. Placement in the Sek is not the end of the world, and kids do move from the Sek to the Bez and of course, the other way too.

Families moving here, specifically Kanton Aargau, with children who are in the later years of primary school need to be very careful when choosing where to live because the resources available for teaching German do vary a great deal. Only certain communities have sufficient numbers and resources to offer a KIK or RIK, the intensive German integration courses. These programs can be a real advantage. The goal is after a few months in these courses, (the length does vary a great deal) the student joins the regular class at the appropriate level. They continue to obtain ongoing German tuition for several years.

I know students who have been in the school system for several years and are still receiving German tuition (in some cases it is private as there are no other students at that Bez who need this).

My advice would be to talk to the teachers (regular class teacher and German teacher) and make sure your son is getting the tuition he needs.

52
Well nothing needs correcting here except that...you are verifying what I wrote initially. People can change their minds, try different things etc...and it doesn't mean something is wrong with them. In Switzerland by a certain age "something is wrong with you" if you don't know. Everyone does not know and by golly you can go to school at the age of 70yrs if you wish...I don't think they have that kind of "inspiration" in Switzerland.

53

I agree. I am quite down on the US system. I need to send 3 kids to college and it is a nightmare.

People here have $200K or $300K of debts that they have to carry all their life because they have to go to college. What they learn is also very generic and not conducive to a successful career in many instances.

State schools are cheaper but at this point and with all the budget cuts it is virtually impossible to get in unless you have a 4.0 GPA + tons of community activities to show.

I have been very satisfied by the education I received (for free) at ETH. Wherever I went in the US I always had the feeling that I was in the MIT or Stanford league.

54
Ahh...but that is the beauty of USA you know that there are exceptions and you just may be one...No Switzerland doesn't have to import talent because of the education system, they import it because children aren't taught in to dream, be entrpreneurs, that they "can"...Even if a parent has this state of mind the environment outside of the home for the child (in the schools) limits their progression of being a "true individual" with ideas and feellings of their own which may not necessarily match the others, which in turn doesn't mean that "something is wrong with them"...In Switzerland if you are not like the others something is wrong with you. Hence they don't understand "talent"...They don't understand that a person can have a certain position or job because they are just dam good at it ....They may not have gone to school for it., That is why USA has honorary (sp?) degrees. This is for people who may have the experience but may not have completed the education in their field. Of course there are some fields that you have to go to school for such as a doctor (but even a doctor can have talent in his field)

I agree with you, you don't need a college degree to feel a respected member of society in Switzerland but you are expected to "stay in your place". In other words you can be a very talented sales person but thats all you will be, you won't get a promotion because of it. USA and Switzerland are two different systems and I made the choice to take my daughter out of the Swiss system.....

55
I understand what you are writing, but also remember that these people made their choices....Its good to know that there are so many..People just have to be wiser in making their choices. Also sometimes people are just too lazy to check for grants and scholarships...I also know some people in debt for student loans, but the government recently changed some of the laws concerning student loans and their repayment. Its also possible to get a "free" education in USA I know people who have had that too....But you can go further around the world with a USA education than a Swiss one..

56
You must have an incredible lot of insight into all sorts of branches of Swiss business to be so sure in your judgement.

Nobody here actually cares what education you have. You must be good, then you have a chance to get on. Micro$oft, to name just one example, boasts about not employing anybody above cleaning people and the like without a college degree. Do I need say anything more? We all see the result of this policy day by day, unless we use Apple, Linux or the like. Many amateurs could easily do a much better job, but they have no chance of being hired.

Instilling the wish to be entrepreneurs into all kids sure sounds like a nice idea, but it also means you'll have 95 % frustrated adults 25 years later. Good for the shrinks.

You say in Switzerland all you can do is "stay in your place" -- sure, as long as you don't show really outstanding talent. If you do, however, no employers by their wits will ever prevent you from having a career; it's in their very own interest to have the right people in the right positions.

There are honorary degrees in Switzerland too, but, just like the regular ones, they do not mean as much as what you actually can accomplish in your job. I think talent is much more important in Switzerland than it is in the USA, unless you are self-employed. Over there you have to have your degree, otherwise the only way for making it to the top is to found your own company, usually meaning a lot of debts, and possibly fail and ruin your entire life.

Yes, there are exceptions, very successful ones even. You say that's what's so great about the American system: You always know you may be an exception. Believe it or not, most people know what the word exception means, and most of them do not like to base their life solely on the foundation of a possible exception.

Oh, by the way, it's nice to know the gubmint "recently changed some of the laws concerning student loans and their repayment." That won't be very helpful to those millions that already ruined their lives, though. I know quite a few of them. Grants and scholarships -- gimme a break. I know parents who spend most of her leisure time hunting for scholarships for their kids who will go to college in a few years. They also put every cent aside for the future education of their kids, because they know the State schools are crap, so the only chance for a successful career is one of the elite colleges. Is that really a better system?

57
It doesn't matter which way you put it...An education in the USA will take you further (all around the world) than an education in Switzerland. Regardless of how they got it..Thats it bottom line....No one gives a hoot about Swiss universities....

58
What a load of biased, parochial crap.

If you have an Ivy League degree with impressive results, you have a meal ticket. Anything else from the US (secondary or tertiary institutions) is perceived in Europe, Australasia and developed parts of Asia as no better and no worse than the local product. (Sorry, I have no knowledge of perceptions in South America).

Incidentally, please note that this thread is on Swiss secondary schools -- not universities.

FYI, I do not moderate this part of the Forum.

59
O.K. Fine but Switzerland doesn't even have that Ivy League Schools. Swiss degrees have no clout on the world stage..Sorry..and you are right this thread is about Swiss Secondary Schools which I still find unimpressive...

60
I'm curious how you "know" what schools do or do not have "clout" on the world stage. I know that Americans set a high level of importance to Ivy League schools - if the field of study is business or law, perhaps even the medical field. Those are not the only career paths in the world though now, are they?

Not everyone can or even wants to be a doctor, businessman or lawyer.

Meanwhile:

I'm really sorry for you that you are unimpressed by a school system that allows folks to find value in whatever study path and ultimate career is right for them.

My husband (obviously) went through Swiss school system, he started learning to cook at age 17 after taking an extra year of regular studies to decide what he wanted to do. (Proof again of the flexibility of Swiss education by the way.)

By "learning to cook" I mean learning everything he needs to know to run a restaurant from the perspective of the kitchen chef. Anyone interested in such things in the US would either a. go to an expensive culinary "university" or b. start out as a line cook (or busser or dishwasher and get promoted into the kitchen) and learn "only" about the particular cuisine offered at the restaurant where they work.

Here, there is no shame in wanting to learn to cook and maybe some day running a restaurant... there is no shame in being that line cook as you are starting out either. On the other hand, there is GREAT derision in the US given to anyone lower than the kitchen chef, head waiter or restaurant manager and even those are looked down upon in many ways.

I'm sorry but really truly, there are more important things to worry about in your child's life than where (or even if or when) they went to university... Well, outside of the US that is.