Hey, I don't mind you having your say,
Start a thread on US uni's if you feel so strongly.
As a member for nearly 2 years now, I'm well aware of threads "going a bit OT at times" but when It becomes one persons rant it can then discourage some from making a genuine comment to the OPs question!
I don't feel "strongly" I just know the Swiss system on a non-superficial level...and I have (had) the opportunity to express it. IMHO after a certain age Swiss school sucks for children...Sorry I can't "sweeten" it up for you. But I hope you found what you were looking for...Also some other information on this thread "may" help you if you plan on your children continuing their education in Switzerland...Take Care...
It would have been most helpful if you had backed it up with some concrete facts and statistics instead of a self-gratifying and subjective rant at how great US universities are and how unsuitable and substandard YOU think the rest of the world's offerings are by comparison.
You've never heard of Harvard University? Stanford? Need I go on...You can find those statistics anywhere...Also I never wrote "the world" uni being substandard we were writing specifically about Switzerland. Seeing that you "get it" now that Switzerland doesn't have the clout in world education, you want to "beat around the bush"...By the way England has University of Oxford a very good school by international standards...Even slightly known (well slightly known to me)McGill University of Canada comes before any Swiss university as far as international rankings are concerned...and the beat goes on...
I agree!
You say you know the Swiss system, I assume you did not go to school here, are your children therefore in the Swiss School System at the moment? If not what first hand experiences have you had that make you so judgemental of it?
Obviously if you have had a bad experience within the school system this then may be relevant and somewhat helpful, if not it is clearly just your opinion without facts.
I don't need to justify what is "true"...I took my daughter out of the Swiss school system for obvious reasons.
That's fine as long as those people who decide to go to Uni pay the entire expenses themselves. In Switzerland, almost the entire education is paid by the taxpayer. So it's common sense for authorities to decide who is talented enough to consume their money.
There's also another aspect that has hardly been mentioned so far. Free choice also means that there are students on a given level that simply shouldn't be there. Since the teachers have to drag them along too, that lowers the overall quality of education for the better ones. I know US citizens with shiny degrees in journalism who haven't even internalized basic spelling and syntax, let alone a readable writing style. It was their choice, and then they wonder why they lose their jobs after a few months.
No offence intended, but could the "obvious reasons" be an overly ambitious and now frustrated parent?
Huh..No offence taken...If you want your child to get anywhere you have to have some "vision" for them...In Switzerland you are not allowed a "vision" because they know whats best for your child..wrong...
My daughter has gone the whole way through the Swiss school system and while it is not perfect, I feel it is equal to the British system.
Whilst academic paths are set early on here, plenty of chances are afforded along the way, if the child is willing to work.
English lessons leave a lot to be desired, as my daughter is not challenged enough, though having said that, the teacher is now trying to cater to her needs - extra work, reading novels. I'm grateful for that, at least.
I feel she has benefitted from going through a system in another language.
I did not say you need to justify, but if you have a genuine reason then rather than ranting about US uni's being the best, it is however relevant when you say that you removed your daughter from the Swiss School System for "obvious reasons".
Apart from the fact you rate US schooling above the Swiss system, what exactly went wrong with your daughters education here that resulted in you making a decision to remove her from it??
Obviously your response will help us to understand your situation better, and may even help others.
Gwendamwn, in reply to your original question:
I am also concerned about the 'streaming' in Swiss (and other European schools). And my child is only 3!
But I know a number of people who've gone through the system, some to vocational schools and apprenticeships, and some to Uni, and overall they seem very happy with their direction in life. I also know some who changed careers later in life, and that is entirely possible. So I am not too afraid that my little one will be 'forced' into a career/vocation/life that she didn't really want.
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In the OT direction, it's silly to compare a handful of elite universities to Swiss universities. I think you'll find that many of the students at Yale, Princeton, Harvard, et al preceded their uni experience with a private high school diploma. Which means a lot of money- in essence, "streaming" if only unofficially.
I think U.S. students are "streamed" in a rather offensive manner, in that one can graduate from a decent university and still not be able to construct a paragraph correctly, or have a rudimentary grasp of world geography. But gosh darnit, they had a right to a degree so cash the check and give it to them!
Degree=education doesn't necessarily exist in the U.S. If I had to place a bet on a showdown between a graduate from a U.S. uni and one from a Swiss uni, my money is on the Swiss graduate. I'd even take the bet with someone from Harvard or Princeton.
I'm from the U.S., but all the hype kids there get pumped up with is detrimental.
What if the "vision" is downright wrong?
Parents often tend to overrate the talent of their kids. My wife had visions for our kids. They are good kids, mind you, but the visions were wrong, too ambitious. That was the opinion of the the teachers and myself. She carried her plans through all the same, at any cost, literally, i.e. I had to cough up the money. Money couldn't buy talent. The plans miserably failed after huge investments. The kids are happy now on a lower level than the one envisaged by their mom. She isn't my wife any more; that was just one of the straws...
By the way, I'm still paying for those visions. She doesn't, because she doesn't earn a living.
Visions are nice. Reality is tough. Try to live with it.
Obvious being what? She didn't grasp the language? Couldn't cope with the work? You moved away? You fell out with her teachers?
Your arguments and posts seem glaringly obvious to you but come across as groundless ranting about the Swiss system and blind faith (optimism?) in the US universities perhaps based on a league table or two.
The US and Switzerland are different countries with different cultures and different ways of doing things. What works in one may not work in the other (education, health-care, etc..)
Eg: the Swiss garbage system of buying pre-authorized garbage bags from the Kanton for 1.80 CHF each is very fair. However, this Swiss "pay-per-bag" garbage system implemented in New York would result in everyone throwing their trash into the streets/rivers to save a few $.
Anyway, the Swiss school system fits the Swiss "cradle to the grave" culture/philosophy. Life can be very safe and scripted here. In the US the gap between rich and poor is greater,and there's more pressure/hunger to succeed. Each has it's merits and flaws. No point arguing vanilla is better than choclate, just eat what you like.
As for me, my kid is starting school here inSwitzerland, and seems to be doing OK. My main concern is the "spit" at 3rd or 4th grade where they already segregate the kids into different "tracks". I don't like that, mainly since I didn't excel until later in life. Plus I don't really like that half the county gets a "dumbed-down" education. I liked that in the US everyone receives the same basic education K-12. If you're not bright or don't try, then your grades reflect that, but at least you have seen it.
Hrm.
Truly, something like this happens in the US also, it is most obvious in areas where there the split from elementary school and those sort of classes starts in about 5th grade (11yrs old roughly).
Typically, before entering "middle" school or "junior high" there is a series of aptitude tests and the children are placed in classes that are suited to how they test which may or may not be weighed against their elementary school teacher's recommendation.
The states where I lived during that period (California and Texas) generally had children in elementary school (one teacher, all day) until 6th grade, then tests taken and classes divided for 7th grade.
I don't see that as so different than it is here so far as "streaming" goes. True, what happens after is very different but I think that is a plus, not a minus.
A huge glaring difference I DO see is that the students who didn't test well still attended the same schools as the children who did and were pressured (either by teachers or other students) about what sorts of classes they were taking. I remember the other kids in my "honors" classes being quite rough about the kids who didn't make it to those classes... even at 12 the kids who had the lower (remedial) classes were belittled.
I think that here, if the kids are sent not only to separate classes but to separate schools, that is better in terms of growth of self-esteem. I do not think there is anything wrong (and there is a whole lot right!) about folks who become "blue collar" workers but I'd say that a pretty high percentage of those folks were NOT in my honors English class when we were all 14.
I think some of ya'll are still looking at things (as my father would say) "bass-ackwards." It isn't about making choices that keep your child from going far, it is about reinforcing what is right for them at an early enough stage of life that their sense of accomplishment in doing their best is not lost.
It isn't about not having the opportunity to take Trigonometry at age 16, it is about already knowing at age 10 that Trigonometry for that child is unlikely to happen by 16 or 18 and that the person who that child is and the adult he or she will become needs to know that what they want to do and what is right for them is not only important but also perfectly okay.
Really? Growing up in New York in the 70/80's I never saw anything like that. Everyone continued normally to JrHS. Guess it varies by state.
That's funny, I used to give the honors students a hard time as being "nerds" and "geeks" ...we had one of the "My kid beat up your honor student" bumper-sitckers on the car
I kind of liked everyone being lumped together, it was more interesting to see all the different varieties of people. I didn't cause a problem with my self-esteem.... sorry if it did for you
I did part of my university studies at Uni Zürich and I wasn't impressed with what I saw.
I actually had a 70yr old woman in my economy classes in the University of Zürich.. which I didn't finish but moved on to work. Don't think you really know what you're talking about tbh.
It's actually been debated here Swisstree, the criticism coming mainly from the industry who had a need for more engineers, claiming that the ETH is too difficult for many clever and eager students. So I do partially agree with your point, but I see that somewhat amended with the much better accessability of Fachhochschulen in CH, where many are in their late 20's or even 30's.